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THIS WAS a private forum for ABANA-Chapter webmasters. It is now open as a discussion board relative to the recent ABANA vs. Chapters crisis Welcome to my brother and sister blacksmiths! Don't let the ABANA logo at the top of the page worry you. This forum was originally set up for the ABANA webmasters to use, and had a password for access. That has now been changed so we will have a place to discuss the existing situation and what we as chapter members want to do. Deleting the ABANA in the name of this site would require re-registering the domain name. This is an independent site and is not affiliated with ABANA proper. A couple of suggestions. We're all grown ups. We all have different points of view. We all have different ideas. Let's try VERY hard not to let those differences get in the way of constructive conversation. Instead, let's USE those differences to forge a stronger, more benevolent, more member oriented organizations! God Bless us All! PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Thursday, 05/24/01 17:50:33 GMT For reference Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Thursday, 05/24/01 19:08:10 GMT Copied my posting from the gurusden to put here for my 2cents. Thanks Jock and Paw Paw for your leadership in this area. One more reason I would like to see a strong performance based organization such as exists in CSI. Will join in more later. My boss sees the value of my staying current with this site but time is money. ABANA: Get away for a bit and look what I come back to! I have never joined ABANA as the few dollars I have been able to put into this hobby has been geared toward the most profitable use. In other words I have lurked around these Blacksmith web sites for close to 4 years now gleaning what I could and doing what I could. During that time I was consistently brought back to Anvilfire and KJ from every where else on the web. I have been referred to the ABANA site as well. The real help came from the aforementioned sites for good, solid, timely advice. Not just for smithing either. There has been a marked improvement in the way I size up a project because of the postings on this forum. My skill level has increased dramatically and so has my confidence. When it comes time to put up the coin, I must support that which has supported me. To that end I joined CSI and The Saltfork Blacksmiths Assoc. ABANA must have been worthwhile at one time and may still be. I do have to ask when I dole out the resources "what is it they do for me?" Heck if a portion of the dues went to support sites like this one then I would see tangible results. Til then if I care to shoot an anvil I never would have considered asking that Organization but would be here or yonder talking to someone who has done what I intend to do. Support performance based orgs and pass on the name brands. Let them play their silly games and leave us alone. Like Paw Paw, I'm an ex Drill Sgt with no tolerance for arrogance and political shenanigans. I have no loyalty for ABANA as it wasn't that organization that played an active role in where I am today. It is the groups I am already a part of. To that end I would like to see CSI expand to a more active role. I have my opinion of what would make for a good org but that would be for another time and forum. Mills Mills -- Mills_Fam2@netzero.net - Thursday, 05/24/01 20:20:36 GMT I had asked all the SERBC Presidents with email for a comment. Most supported the group decision. However, through some miscommunication the AFC's (Alabama Forge Council) decision to support ABANA's rules did not get through to the group. The AFC did not know of the anvil shoot until the day before. Here is their president's letter which is also being printed and sent to all members via US mail. [Mark Linn's letter to all AFC members] May 22, 2001 To: All AFC Members: From: President of the AFC Subject: AFC Charter withdrawal from ABANA. Dear Members, You may or may not have heard of the AFC having its Charter withdrawn by ABANA effective May 19, 2001. I am sending this letter to all members of the AFC to document, to the best of my abilities, the events that led to this decision. Last year I saw problems arising from the ranks of ABANA being led mainly by the Florida Chapter, but others joining in. This led me to call for a vote at our January meeting as to how the AFC membership wanted to participate with ABANA. It was a very close vote but the AFC voted to abide by the rules and regulations of ABANA and maintain our affiliation. The Southeastern Conference, Inc. called a board meeting for the same time we were having our scheduled workshop. I sent an email to Dwayne Frost, the Conference Chairman, and President of the Southeastern Conference, Inc., explaining that I would not be in attendance due to the conflict with our workshop. The week after the workshop I received an email from Bill Richardson and Robby Armstrong stating that a request had been made by the Southeastern Conference, Inc to provide input concerning an Anvil shoot during the Conference. I then wrote a letter to Dwayne which is included with this document. I elected to state the AFC position pertaining to any items that may arise concerning ABANA. I had not seen any written legal documentation at this time stating one way or the other as to a rule set down by ABANA. All I had heard was rumors and second hand information. I would like to note that I was not directly contacted by ABANA, or the Southeastern Conference, Inc. for any input as to our stance on the matter. I received no reply from Dwayne or any other persons after the email was sent. I arrived at the Conference on Thursday, May 17, 2001 around noon. I registered and then met with Dwayne Frost to get the information I needed to set up the Iron-in-the-hat and auction since this was our primary responsibility at this conference. Dwayne informed me during our conversation that he had trouble opening my email and hadn't read it. He did not ask me to re-send it in another format or get help in opening it. I presumed he had read the letter and made it available to the parties involved. It was sent as a word document and copies were sent at the same time to Robby Armstrong and Bill Richardson of the AFC. I explained to Dwayne what it said, as best I could remember, then went about my duties. Later that afternoon I was approached by the President of the Florida Blacksmiths Association and several others asking about our position. There were several AFC members present during this conversation, Bill Richardson being one of them. I again explained that the AFC had voted during our general membership meeting in January to abide by the rules and regulations set by the ABANA Board. The afternoon of the next day I was approached by Dwayne Frost once more at which time he asked if the AFC members would leave the Southeastern Conference, Inc. if they had the anvil shoot. I said we would not leave. During the auction that night a list was passed asking for a signature and a yes or no vote as to whether or not to have the anvil shoot. I was never given this sheet to sign but apparently the people who did, overwhelmingly voted to have the anvil shoot. It was announced at the auction that there would be an anvil shoot the next day at noon. Saturday morning LeeAnn Mitchell, Executive Secretary, for ABANA approached me and said ABANA was aware of our position. She told me she had phoned Doug Learn, President, of ABANA on Friday evening and informed him of the decision to have the anvil shoot. He told her that if it were held all participating chapters would be removed from the rolls of ABANA immediately. She further stated that he recommended that all members of the AFC pack up and leave the conference. I informed her that I would not ask any AFC member to leave. I also restated our position to her so she would have a clear understanding. I informed the AFC members that were in the area of our tent about the conversation I had with LeeAnn. The anvil shoot was held and our expulsion was listed on the ABANA web page. No formal notification has arrived. Apparently no individuals are affected by this decision. I have also included the notices posted on the ABANA web site. The one titled ABANA Policy On Anvil Shooting, last revision July, 1997 magically appeared today. I have never seen this before and can't help but wonder why it was not sent out by ABANA to help prevent what happened this weekend. It was also brought to my attention by Tom Clark that he and others had contacted Doug Learn and asked him to come to the Southeastern and have a meeting with the participants. I was informed by Tom Clark that Doug Learn took the position that a meeting was not important nor required. These are the events to date. My plans at this moment are to keep quiet and wait and see what happens. It is tempting to jump in with all fours, but I think it is to the best interest of the AFC to give it time and see what shakes out. Rumors or running unrestrained at this time concerning this matter. I will try to keep you informed through your local Forge Masters. One note of interest in all my searching I have found nothing allowing ABANA to remove a Chapter or individual from it's roll for participating in an anvil shoot. At the last board meeting a motion was made by Hightower but after discussion the motion was withdrawn. During the anvil shoot the officers of the AFC, in attendance, remained at the AFC tent. It is expensive to send out a mailing such as this, but I think in this instance it was necessary. If not before, I will see you at the September conference. Mark Linn, President Alabama Forge Council 5513 Cobblestone Dr. Pinson, AL. 35126 Attachements not reprocuced here. Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Thursday, 05/24/01 21:03:05 GMT Let me do a small description of Cyber Smiths International (CSI) as it currently exists. CSI consists of those folks who support Anvilfire.com with subscription fees. That's it. No officers, no politics, no Bu** Shi*. Just blacksmiths who appreciate the resources of Anvilfire, enjoy talking to each other, and like to help each other. A place where I can ask any question on my mind, and not worry that I'll be considered stupid for asking. A group that respects each other for what we are, what we have been, what we can do, what we are learning, and what we can teach. We've never seen a need of a constitution, by-laws, or officers. That doesn't me that we dis-approve of those things, nor do we believe that they are NEVER necessary. We've never needed them, but we're still a small group. As the group grows, those things may become necessary. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Thursday, 05/24/01 21:45:11 GMT Spell checker! (wry grin) We've never seen a need FOR a constitution, by-laws, or officers. That doesn't MEAN that we dis-approve of those things, nor do we PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Thursday, 05/24/01 21:46:38 GMT I have a couple of questions. Mostly for ABANA directors to answer, but I would welcome answers from anybody who knows. I have read all of the information I could find on the ABANA web site, so regurgitation of that information will not answer the questions. These questions remain after reading all I could find. 1. What logic was used to disallow anvil shoots? Besides any fear of personal liability of ABANA officers or directors. 2. Was insurance in effect at Madison that would have covered any damage that might have occurred from the anvil shoot? 3. Do the directors feel or know that the majority of ABANA members want anvil shoots disallowed? If so, what information supports that feeling. 4. Are any of the ABANA board members lawyers or employed in the legal profession? 5. Do ABANA by laws allow the expulsion or disenfranchisement of the chapters by ABANA directors in the manner it occurred? Thanks in advance for the info! Tony -- tca_b@milwpc.com - Thursday, 05/24/01 23:17:57 GMT Tony, I don't think that any of the ABANA directors will be comeing here, but somone may have answers for you. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 05/25/01 00:15:05 GMT Tony, you always seem to get right to the thick of it. An admirable quality I might add. I applaud the AFC President, Mark Linn, for his patience and disciplined approach. Rather than insert my uninformed opinion on the fracas that currently exists, I would like to use this moment to encourage everyone to see this as a spring board to move us into a better organizational position. Consider the contribution that practicing blacksmiths make to our respective societies. Past the nostalgia, aren't men and women who can look at raw materials and available techniques and use them in new and innovative ways a national treasure? Then what about the training and improvement of them? Steve Rutterbush has/is struggling with getting a formalized Blacksmith program implemented without any clear cut curriculum apparent. There are others as well. I realize that the majority of us are hobbiests and it will probably stay that way. I do believe that there should be some set of standards to define skills. I would point out that in the martial arts I was exposed to much more discipline and history along with clear cut standards for advancement. That is a pretty big practical hobby as well. As an example, I have a drivers license. Not just any license, mine is particular as is yours. Many have a simple operators type for passenger vehicles. It is relatively easy to obtain one merely be of the right age and learn and demonstrate a basic grasp of rules and etiquette. I have had more training than that. I had to be licensed to operate vehicles in excess of 10,000 GVW. In addition I had to be knowledgable of air brake systems and to have a passenger endorsement as well. I was a bus driver. Beyond that is the man who is licensed to pull a trailer, a tandem or triple with or with out explosives or hazardous materials. In the case of a driller for a water well company he must pass the necessary tests to poke a hole in the ground, which is a completely unrelated field, but he's useless if all he can do is drive to the location. My point is, as it stands, get a forge, hammer and anvil and you are a modern day blacksmith. Well, I do like to say that about those around me and myself BUT it would help me if there was some type of criteria that would help define my strengths and weaknesses. In turn I could learn them and pass that knowledge to those I influence. As it stands the door is wide open to any charlatan that waltzes in. Specifically, how this fits in to the current flap is the liability of anvil firing. You want to have an anvil shoot at your event fine, have someone get certified in Anvil firing. It could consist of pyro techniques and hazards, crowd control and legal/liability issues. That would make the insurance types breath easier as well as putting another credentialed feather in your hat. Maybe even remove some of the possibility that joe bob souped up the mix with a tablespoon of TNT and a pinch of staight nitro hyuck hyuck hyuck. There would be no need to require documentation for a man to have fun with this craft any more than we should have documentation to go pop a few (hundred) rounds from our favorite weapon(s). It would lend credibitity to the craft as a whole if there were some way that the consumer would know that this semi pro hobbiest actually does understand how to build what has been contracted for. The same as you should look for ASE certified techs at the garage. Oherwise they're just punks with wrenches for all you know unless YOU know. Jock beats the modern finish drum quite well and that should be a part of the basic skills package. alongside the welding and safety classes. and hammer control. advanced standing would branch into power hammers, tool making, some design and engr math, then maybe specific skills such as spiral staircase builder master. And add ons like pyro skills for anvil firing technicians. Some of this is off the cuff and some is based from training drivers and soldiers. Will an organization pick up the challenge? It has been pointed out that ABANA has a journeymans program. There are also those who went abroad and have some ranking from european guilds. I am not well versed on those aspects. ABANA could back off their position some and help to guide the stucture of the national standards. They are in the best position to do so. I would join for that reason. Cybersmiths Int'l currently supports one of the best resources bar none for the learning of this craft. That organization (CSI) could also pick up the challenge of leading. It would then help those beginers as ABANA has in the past. Could be there is room for two organizations. Thanks again for this forum, Jock and Paw Paw. Bruce, I left you out earlier and I apologize. You also put forth a lot of effort in supporting the Blacksmith community. Thank you as well. Mills Mills -- mills_fam2@netzero.net - Friday, 05/25/01 02:31:30 GMT ANVIL FIRING: ABANA's anti anvil fireing position has a fairly long history. It MAY be for libility reasons but if so they are not picking on the other dangerous aspects of blacksmithing OR having a blacksmith convention. There is no prohibition of fireworks, cannon firing, bungee jumping, mock battle, or operating Little Giants without a spring guard. There is NO LOGIC behind the anvil fireing ban. ABANA's anti-anvilfireing position then must be more philosophical, "we don't do horse shoes and we don't fire anvils". . . . "We are artists". In effect they don't want rednecks, southern crackers or fabricators. Or at least discount what they perceive as "that" segment of society. I have asked several (ex) Chapter presidents if there was in fact insurance covering the event and particularly the anvil shoot. I have not gotten a response. I don't think the ABANA Board knows how the membership feels about anvil shoots. However, the AFC said it was a close vote (to support ABANA). In many parts of the country they don't do anvil shoots as often as in others. There is a good chance that nationaly it might fail unless someone campainged for it like it was an anti-gun ruling. In 1989 ABANA celebrated its 25th aniversary. In 25 years it has failed to meet its educational requirements of being a non-profit and if you open your eyes and look around, it has also failed to attract "people of color". Nor do they keep up with the regulations effecting our craft as does NOMMA. ABANA has a lot of work to do besides holding a biannual conference. On the other hand the Chapters are where the action is. The Chapters are mostly educational. Most allow visitors to attend meetings without charge and have workshops or demonstrations almost every month. In the more populated parts of the country there are Chapter meetings within easy driving distance EVERY weekend. A few chapters are as big as ABANA was 20 years ago. Do these chapters need ABANA? Probably less than ABANA needs them. ABANA's new guidelines for chapters is to have 25% ABANA memberships among members. Recently a request for it to be 10% created a huge controversy. What else does the current board have in mind? Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Friday, 05/25/01 05:19:46 GMT In the latest dictate from the ABANA board (link below)they asked NCABANA to change their name. ABANA does not have the right to do so on several levels. There are at least a dozen other organizations that use the accronyme "ABANA". There is also a city in Turkey called Abana or Abane that predates the use of accronymes by a thousand years or so. A fellow there owns the URL ABANA.COM. ABANA does not own the rights to its accronyme therfore does not have the right to ask others not to use it. This is especially true when they have severed relations with the chapters, thus any control of what they do. When we setup this service ther were only a couple independent blacksmithing organizations and we had no need to setup different hosting for them. However, in the near future we will be offering different URLs other than the name.ABANA-Chapter.com for sponsored hosting if need be. Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Friday, 05/25/01 12:57:29 GMT Greetings all - There was a question about whether insurance coverage was active at the SERBC. I cannot answer that but we did have insurance for the FABA October Conference at which we had an anvil shoot. Quite frankly, I am at more risk driving to the shoot than standing back the required 200 feet or so with the standard safety barrier in place between me and the ignition point. Overall, the risk to an individual and the overall liability risk (well not being zero) are tiny and far less than the risks we assume using power hammers, gas forges, high temp salt pots, and the like. There was also a question of the level of personal financial risk to a member of the ABANA board. I have (and will probably again) serve on the FABA board and I was willing to accept that risk - it's not zero, but it is less than the risk I take any time I operate a vehicle -- car insurance can be maxed out if you hit someone important enough. The real point of contention between FABA and ABANA (I cannot speak for the other chapters) was that of control. FABA and its leadership simply could not surrender control of our activities to the ABANA board, especially when the ABANA board failed to follow its own By-laws and applicable statues of the State of Georgia. Anvil-shooting just happened to be cause celebre. What I and other folks are now doing are casting about for a way to bring some good out of this problem and some potential neat ideas have already surfaced. I hope as time passes and the opportunity for idea exchange occurs among the chapter members, we'll cob together something that will actually further smithing. Steve Steve Bloom -- sab@blacksmithing.org - Friday, 05/25/01 14:11:28 GMT Steve, Thank you for the information about the FABA insurance. I completely agree with your "point of contention" comments. I've said all along that the ABANA Board of Dictators just want's to flex it's muscles. With reference to you last paragraph, that's what all of us here are looking for, something that will actually further smithing. In it's early days, ABANA did a great deal for smithing. I firmly believe that most of the founding members would be horror stricken at the turn events have taken. What does ABANA do for smithing TODAY? The Anvil's Ring magazine is for the Artist Blacksmith. The smith just trying to make a living from day to day finds little of value to him in the magazine. The Hammer's Blow has a little more in it for the working stiff, but not much. I get more from the North Carolina newsletter (The Hot Iron Sparkle) in any one issue than I get from a years worth of BOTH of the ABANA publications. We need articles about the daily process of estimating, designing, techniques and methodology. Not about the gorgeous work that some few are doing. Don't mis-undertand me, I don't mean to take ANYTHING away from those artist smiths whose work is featured in the Anvil's Ring. Most of it is absolutely fantastic. But I will never do that type of work, and except for a rare occurence of inspiration, don't really have any desire to do so. Tell me something that I can use TODAY, not something that will take me 30 years to learn! PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 05/25/01 17:07:31 GMT Is ABANA salvageable, as some have suggested, by voting in some new directors or there an endemic problem? Mills -- Mills_Fam2@netzero.net - Friday, 05/25/01 18:39:05 GMT Mills, I don't think so. It would take (IIRC, this is subject to correction) 6 years to rplace a majority of the Board. Then it would take how long to reverse the process that has be operating for the last 10 years? I for one am not willing to wait that long. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 05/25/01 18:41:23 GMT has beEN operating, not be operating PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 05/25/01 18:41:58 GMT A number of us had the same discussion at Madison about 'taking back' ABANA and that was our conclusion, t'aint worth the effort and the Tums bill for the first bunch of years would be outrageous. Steve Bloom -- sab@blacksmithing.org - Friday, 05/25/01 18:59:44 GMT Steve, What kind of organizations now exist that might be converted (willingly) to a cover organization for chapters that do not want to affiliate with ABANA. There are some others, besides the Rebel Seven, I'm sure. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 05/25/01 19:40:39 GMT That's the big question - if my information is correct (and I'm checking on that), the SE chapters are linked to an independent Ga corporation whose business is to put on the SE Regional Conference. As worst, that might serve as a template or it might be slightly expanded to cover the needs. Over the next couple of weeks, I'll be kicking ideas around with FABA members, doing my homework, and trying to pull together a tentative list of just what such an umbrella organization might do. Frankly, the chapters do a great job of helping members, so my current thoughts are the list should include a multi-group conference and some form of cyber-information exchange, most elements of which actually already exist (like this forum). The only really new idea I've come up with so far is a central site for posting chapter events (meetings and conferences) and a depository for all the how-to-do it articles originating in the chapters' newsletters. If anyone has any bright idea, please toss them out -- err -- contribute them to the discussion (a bit better phrased, no?). Steve Bloom -- sab@blacksmithing.org - Friday, 05/25/01 19:51:08 GMT Paw Paw, how naive of me to think they would look here. Grin. Anyway, I gave them a day to respond, so I’ll try to send the same questions to the ABANA site from home. We’ll see how they respond. Steve, as I posted before, Kudo’s to those who do the shoot despite the dictate. I also fully agree that there are other much more dangerous things that we all do every day and that are done at blacksmithing events. Any demo is probably more dangerous than a well thought out anvil shoot. Think about the real dangers of an oxy/acetylene rig sitting 25 feet from the crowd at a demo. Or the flying flux and scale from forging and welding. That’s why this made no sense to me either. But I do want to see the ABANA answers to the questions. Must let both sides speak their peace. I think it was Abe Lincoln who said: “I don’t like that man. I must try to get to know him better” Or something like that..... If no one answers questions from little old me, then I have my answer too. On the plus side...... The die blocks I picked up for anvils last Friday may make an excellent “anvil” shoot. Flat faces about 6 inches by 24 inches. And the lighter of the blocks is about 700 pounds. I have some old powder and some fuse...... No need to warn me about the dangers. Hey, maybe I should ask ABANA if I should cart my medium sized trebuchet to La Crosse next year and fling an anvil or two? What do you think? Tony -- tca_b@milwpc.com - Friday, 05/25/01 21:09:20 GMT Anvil Flinging. . Hmmm I left that out of the NOT PROHIBITED list. Don't get too impatient about your questions, Paw-Paw hasn't invited everyone yet. Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Friday, 05/25/01 21:46:24 GMT ABANA (ie the Board) has relied heavily on its "mission statement" part of this mission statement has been to be a central point for the dissemination of information and communication with the Chapters. Their late entry in the Internet and the FACT of the net and sites such as this and anvilfire have reduced the importance of that part of the "mission". On the other hand the current SNAFU is in part relying too much on the net. ABANA expected all Chapter presidents to search a poorly organized site where documents were often hidden behind password protected barriers. The AFC President Mark Linn expected someone to be able to open a proprietary formant word processing document (I can't open MS Word docs either). Both are cases of computer illiteracy AND what I call "techno snobbery". There would have been no missunderstandings if hard copy documents were sent by ABANA and the AFC. The AFC is currenty notifying all members by mail. ABANA has not notified the Chapters via mail. I know for a fact that at least ONE of the chapters at SERBC cannot be contacted by e-mail. Do they KNOW they have been kicked out of ABANA? Has ABANA contacted them??? And THIS comes from an organization that claims as part of its "mission" to be a center for communication. Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Friday, 05/25/01 22:02:56 GMT My questions are now in the e-mail basket of abana@abana.org. While I was on the ABANA site, I took a look at the by laws. In article 7, section 3, number 5, it appears that the board of directors gave the board of directors the ability to do things that they feel are in the best interest of the organization. It doesn't say the president can do what he wants, it says the board can do what it wants. In section 8 of article 7, it says 2/3 of the members present at a meeting can vote out directors. 20% of the membership can call a meeting in writing. Or 7 board members can call a meeting. Maybe that's useless trivia, but I thought it was interesting. Tony -- tca_b@milwpc.com - Friday, 05/25/01 23:32:48 GMT Cause Paw Paw is still waiting for some e-mail addresses to be fowarded to him. (grin) Serious, all of you invite anyone you think might be able to help. Especially Chapter Officers from the Rebel Seven. Tony, You noticed who gave the power to the Board of Dictators, didn't you? Wasn't the membership, it was a blatant power grab. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 05/25/01 23:46:30 GMT My message with questions bounced when I sent it to abana@abana.org. So I sent it to Doug Learn. He did ask for feedback in a recent letter from the pres. In fact, he complained about not getting feedback. Paw Paw, I have seen similar language in many sets of bylaws. Boards tend to do that to protect themselves. I'm not saying it's right, just common. I don't think the language is strong enough to support the disenfranchisement. And unless the other board members were consulted, it seems Doug learn may have overstepped his bounds in performing the expulsion himself. Mills, I was going to say this before, but thanks for the compliment on getting to the point. I try to do that to waste as little time as possible. In my travels on the ABANA site, it seems that the board is more concerned about art blacksmithing than functional blacksmithing. There are some comments about practical blacksmithing, but they seem far overshadowed by the art talk. I guess I'm not telling you guys anything you don't know in that regard. Paw Paw, I'm exactly in tune with you on that. Although I think you have produced some pieces that I would definitely call very artful. If I had the knowledge and current ability to produce decorative art pieces, I might like the ABANA approach. I certainly do think the art is beautiful too, but maybe an organization more dedicated to practical and functional smithing is needed. What you (we?) have here seems more to my liking. But Here's the REAL bottom line for me. I like to have FUN! Anvil shoots are FUN. Non majority dictates are very UNFUN. Disrespect is REALLY UNFUN! Life is too darn short not to have fun. I'd rather not belong to ANY group and just invite people over, if the alternative was "belonging", but having to cowtow to a set of rules. Enough rambling. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Tony -- tca_b@milwpc.com - Saturday, 05/26/01 02:15:42 GMT And tomorrow brought a long response from Doug Learn. Doug obviously feels strongly about his convictions and took no small amount of his time to explain them to me. Some of his answers to my questions were what I consider less than adequate, but I believe they are from his heart and what he truly believes is good and right. Doug did (and does) not know me from Adam, but he took the time to explain his position. I have to respect him for that. But, I do not agree with him in the slightest. The last sentence in his e-mail was as follows "We welcome all, but only if they follow the rules." The only rules I follow are the 10 commandments and respect for others. All other rules serve the rule maker(s) and not humanity. And two of the board members are lawyers. Why on earth would two of the board members of a Blacksmiths organization be lawyers? Other statements that I don't like or agree with were made as well. These are quotes from the e-mail: "No insurance covered this at Madison, indeed no insurance ever covered any anvil shoot" "Most of the feedback over the past 4 years that this policy was in effect the Board has gotten is that anvil shoots are of no interest to the majority of the ABANA members. A small number hold this "tradition" dear, thus we had the past problem." I will not be becoming an ABANA member as long as there are lawyers on the board and Doug is president. Of course, grinning, no one should take my word for it or take my lead. Ask your own questions and make up your own mind! Tony -- tca_b@milwpc.com - Saturday, 05/26/01 14:45:33 GMT I have recent letters that will be reproduced in the NEWS from SERBC and FABA boards claiming insurance WAS in place. I've never shopped for it but I'd bet that it comes under "fireworks displays". There would NEVER be a fireworks display in this country as well as many others if insurance were not available. Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Saturday, 05/26/01 17:21:12 GMT To All, I don't know about your own shops, but there is NOTHING inherently safe in mine. Since blacksmithing faded long ago nothing was done to really make the equipment OSHA approved. I'm the only person responsible for safety. Just like the old days I take the risk unto myself. I like it that way; thats partly the reason I do it. The trend of the govt. trying to protect us from ourselves is insidious and is creeping into the every aspect of our lives. You only have to touch a hot iron once to know that it is hot, but if you are not allowed to make that mistake, you never learn. I personally believe this allows more and more of our freedoms to be taken away and dependency on the govt. increases as time passes. Anvil shooting is not the issue. The issue is whether will bow to the dictates of a board more interested in money than the preservation of blacksmithing and its traditions. We have to make a stand somewhere or we will all be walking in circles, mumbling, and eating nothing but extruded food. Theres the rub. JB John Butler -- jgbutler@sprintmail.com - Saturday, 05/26/01 18:05:52 GMT I have read with interest the contraversy regarding ABANA revoking charters for shooting anvils. One thing that has been preached daily since I began browsing the anvilfire site and participating in the chat room is SAFETY! The shooting of an anvil is an inherently unsafe act. Lets all take a deep breath, step back and take an unbiased look at this act and call it what it is, a cheap thrill that puts people in harms way. An anvil when launched into the air, has less aerodynamic peoperties that a jet propelled brick. The fact that someone has not been injured or killed yet is only attributable to luck. The integrity of an anvil cannot be guarenteed unless it is x-rayed and I doubt that happens. If the anvil has flaws, it can shatter and scatter shrapnel rather that make a short flight. I applaude ABANA for having the guts to take a stand. They drew a line in the sand, promised consequences for crossing the line and delivered the consequences when the line was crossed. ABANA was founded to promote blacksmithing. One person injured from a anvil shoot gone haywire can do more damage to the art than all the promotion in the world can correct. I fail to see how putting explosives under a block of steel and launching it several hundred feet into the air promotes blacksmithing. There are those who see this as ABANA flexing its muscles, and others who see it as a "Rights" issue. It is neither, it is just good safety sense. Why must we always wait until someone gets injured or killed before we change our actions? I as a safety professional by occupation, and I teach that it only takes one repetition for an incredibly unsafe act to become standard procedure. If we do something and it don't blow up and kill us, we will do it again, and each time we get away with it, it reinforces in our mind that this is acceptable practice. Thank you for your time and patience. Woody Richard A. Hanson -- woody@enetis.net - Sunday, 05/27/01 02:07:37 GMT Woody, I'm not going to argue that there can be dangers involved in anvil shooting. Obviously when you mix explosives and projectiles there can be. I've worked with explosive extensively. Probably more so and under more difficult conditions in this forum, and certainly more so than the average anvil shooter. (detail privately on request) But I believe firmly that with properly trained personell, and under proper conditions, anvil shooting is no more dangerous than doing a forge weld demonstration for the public. And to me, the issue is larger than just anvil shooting. As John said so well in the post immediately preceeding yours, WE, as citizens and ABANA member ALSO have to draw a line somewhere. People who say, by word or deed, "Do what I tell you to, cause I know what is best for you!" are inherently arrogant. That's true, whether the speaker is ABANA, or an extremely liberal government, OR an extremely conservative government. I have no tolerance for ANYONE who takes that approah. I can be lead, but I can't be pushed worth a dam*! And ABANA is pushing. Add to that, ABANA has based their entire action on the supposed impossibility of obtaining insurance for anvil shoots. Sorry, but that's horse manure! Florida had insurance for the FABA meet. SERBC had insurance for the Madison meet. Anvil shooting is the oldest form of fireworks in the US, second only to shooting guns. It has a long history. I've got a copy of a picture of an anvil shoot around the turn of the century, with six anvils in the shoot. ABANA talks about an anvil that went astray. (course it could happen, with improper preparation) But the only incident that I can find any history at all on didn't involve an anvil! It involde somebody firing a swage block from an iron plate. The swage block shattered. Of COURSE the darn thing shattered, it was cast iron! Happened ONCE. Has never happened again. I doubt seriously if it ever will. In spite of what ABANA will tell you, at least some of the actions of the ABANA board are in direct conflict with corporate law in Georgia. I understand (but do not KNOW) that the Attorney General of Georgia has been notified. I have no idea what action he (or she) will take, or what the results of any action will be. I have never fired an anvil, and probably never will. I've only got a three, and I use all three of them. But if someone else wants to fire one, in a safe manner, ABANA has no business telling him that he can't. Yes, I preach safety. Dam* right I do. I've got scars (MANY of them!) from accidents of all kinds. Don't want any more. But anvil firing, in my opinion CAN be done safely. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 02:38:18 GMT Second line above should read: under more difficult conditions than anyone in this forum Sorry about the typing error. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 02:39:28 GMT Woody, Let me also add that I respect your right to your opinion, and I also respect you for stating your opinion. But I *DON'T* agree with you! (grin) PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 02:42:47 GMT Woody, I take your line of thinking as assuming everyone is an idiot and must be saved from themselves. Read your own statement.. "If we do something and it don't blow up and kill us, we will do it again, and each time we get away with it, it reinforces in our mind that this is acceptable practice." By your logic would we not also ban driving a car? Do you drive a car Woody? Do you fly in a plane? Do you ride a bicycle on a road with cars? Do you let your children cross the road to get on a school bus? I'm sorry, but I must call you a hypocrite Woody. You are practicing selective denial. Just like ABANA is. You are making a lot of assumptions for a lot of people Woody and you have no right to do that. We can do some things that CAN be dangerous, but make them reasonably safe. We CAN understand the possible dangers and work with and around them. If you can't understand that, no one will make you watch an anvil shoot. In fact, I'm guessing that organizers would be more than happy to let a safety professional like you try to educate the potential anvil shoot viewers. Hey, make up a pamphlet to explain the dangers and pass it out! Help to educate. Don't help to squash freedom. I respect yor opinion, but if you try to force your opinion on me, I will not accept that. Do what you want in your own back yard Woody, but you are not welcome in mine. Your line of thinking is not acceptable to me. Shooting an anvil is not an inherently unsafe act. It can be done with less risk than driving your car. I think if you go back and look at the conversations on Anvilfire, they don't preach safety, they TEACH safety. People are told WHY something can be unsafe. Fear is a lack of knowledge Woody. Education is key, Woody, not denial of freedom. Woody, I don't mean this as a personal attack. I just want you to know that I will never accept your line of thinking. Tony -- tca_b@milwpc.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 03:08:30 GMT PawPaw, Col. Tim Ryan assured me that a person of metalurgical science checked out his anvils for soundness and they were passed with flying colors. This whole idiotic afair was caused by someone shooting a swage block off of some type of base. A piece came off of it and went into the river near by. This incident has nothing to do with a proper anvil shoot in any shape or form. I would be interested to know how many how many current ABANA board members have been present at an anvil shoot? Shouldn't you see one before you make a decision that eliminates part of your membership forever. JB John Butler -- jgbutler@sprintmail.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 03:33:57 GMT John, Did you think I was arguing with you? PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 04:02:03 GMT PPW, Nope that was just for info. JB John Butler -- jgbutler@sprintmail.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 11:04:31 GMT OK, your last sentence kinda concerned me. No problem. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 12:25:34 GMT I can't believe that people still don't get that this is not an issue over anvil shooting safety but a wake up call to force Doug Learn, ABANA's President, to follow Georga law. Bill Robertson -- applecrossforge@nettally.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 19:04:35 GMT Bill, That's the primary issue, I'll agree. I think there are other, lesser issues, too. Anvil firing safety is one of them. Governmental interference (in this case ABANA as governing body) in the lives of it's members. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 05/27/01 20:03:25 GMT Tony: Read your comments with much interest. My statement about repeating an unsafe act was based on well established facts of human behavior. Unsafe acts have all the positive reinforcement built into them necessary to sustain the act. ie. The thrill people get from shooting an anvil makes them want to do it again. Further to protect their right to a thril, they will take the justification for it to absurd ends ie comparing shooting an anvil to driving a car or flying in an airplane. There is no comparrison between them. As you are probably aware, people who fly planes and drive cars have to be tested and licensed. Not so with an anvil shoot. You further stated that I am a hypocrite because I am supposedly practicing selective denial. I simply stated my opinion o the subject and tried to be as objective as possible. I would be a hypocrite if I did as you suggested, pass out pamphelts to explain how something like this can be done in a safe manner. By your own statement you imply that there is some risk involved. I don't think that I need to protect people from themselves, but my opinion stands, there is no place for shooting anvils at ABANA functions. As I said, some with make this a "rights" thing and you obviously have. You think your right to a cheap thrill is more important than the safety of others. If it is such a hot deal, shoot all the anvils you want in your back yard and invite whom ever you wish then the responsibliity for anything that happens will lie directly with you and not an orginization that is remote from the incident. Woody Richard A. Hanson -- woody@enetis.net - Monday, 05/28/01 03:53:09 GMT Paw Paw: Read your comments and I respect your opinion. On this, I guess we have to agree to disagree. It would be a boring world indeed if we all agreed on everything anyway. I love contraversy anyway. I havn't been an ABANA member for long enough to be familiar with all the political things. I did learn one thing in the army though, if you only followed the orders you liked, chaos was the result. I was recently elected to the Board of Directors of the Dakota Artist Blacksmith Association. I take that as an honor bestowed on me by my peers and I realize that I serve at their whim. I am sure that there are ways of removing board members if they fall from favor before their terms expire. In other words there has to be a way to recall them now if they no longer plese the majority. If it is the will of the majority to exercise that option, then a new board can be seated in a short time. If one works within the system, the system can be changed in an orderly fashion, but I fear this will not happen, there are those that thrive on chaos much to the detrement of blacksmithing both as a profession and a hobby. Already people can no longer look at the situation objectively and too much emotion is already involved. Time for all of us to take a quick dip in the lake, chill out a bit, take a deep breath, step back and see what can be salvaged from the mess before the ship sinks. Woody Richard A. Hanson -- woody@enetis.net - Monday, 05/28/01 04:16:49 GMT Woody, "Well established facts of human behavior"? Are we all the same in your mind Woody? Do you have that aspect of human behavior all figured out? Did you help the Big Guy with that part of us? There are NO "facts" of human behavior. Commonly repeated behavior, yes. But not facts. Those who are arrogant enough to think they have humans all figured out are consistently proven wrong. Maybe commonly repeated behavior is what you meant, but please use the correct words lest people think you really are that arrogant. Woody, this has nothing to do with cheap thrills. It has a lot to do with those who have no ability to make something safe telling everyone else that it cannot be made safe. They are wrong. You are wrong if you support them. That is a fact. If you were "as objective as possible" you would recognize that possibility. But do you recognize that possibility? Does the ABANA board recognize that possibility? Why would they not work to make it possible instead of taking the easier route of banning it? Ahh yes, the excuse that they don't have time.... I'm guessing that there are those that would be willing to work on that if asked. Has anyone asked? Hmmmmm... Want to know what my thrills are? The thrill I get from doing things like anvil shoots and trebuchet hurls is the enjoyment I see on peoples faces. When they see it happen, and when their eyes shine when they ask questions and get answers. Especially kids! I'm "thrilled" to help them have some fun and learn about something new (or old). I'm also thrilled to see the recognition of the power involved and the acknowledgement of the work that goes into making it relatively safe. I'm quite convinced that the major reason the ABANA board disallowed anvil shoots was from fear. There may be some pathetic power play involved as well. But fear is enough to keep me from joining. Well, that and the fact that 2 members of the board of a blacksmiths organization are lawyers. I was told that some board members feel the practice is disrespectful to the anvil also. That is a much better reason not to like anvil shoots than fear. But disrespect to a hunk of steel smacks of idolatry to me. Now to address a more serious matter. Where in any of this discussion did I say or suggest that I "think (my) right to a cheap thrill is more important than the safety of others"? Are you making an assumption for me again Woody? Don't make the mistake of doing that. Ever again. Ask questions all you want, but DO NOT put words in my mouth. I will accept your apology for that when you offer it. Safety IS paramount Woody. But I CAN make some things that you may fear, relatively quite safe. And people DO enjoy some of those things. What right do you have to tell me and them that they cannot have that enjoyment? Again, no one is nailing your feet to the ground and making you watch something you fear. Walk away Woody. Even give your opinion as you go. Just don't try to make everyone else follow your line of thinking. THAT is what we will not tolerate. And THAT is part of what we take exception to from the ABANA board. Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Monday, 05/28/01 12:33:18 GMT As you may know, ABANA has claimed to have removed the Florida Artist Blacksmith Association (FABA) from the ABANA chapter rolls because it permitted an anvil shoot at the Madison blacksmith conference, which FABA hosts along with six other ABANA chapters. Why do FABA and other chapters continue to shoot the anvil despite ABANA President Doug Learn’s threats? We hope you will share the following explanation with your members. Throughout history, blacksmiths have shot the anvil to commemorate special occasions, such as the signing of the declaration of independence in this country and in Europe to celebrate dates important to the artisans’ guilds. FABA is committed to keeping blacksmithing alive, and our efforts include conducting the anvil shoot at our annual conference. Some FABA members are neutral on the value of conducting anvil shoots and some even think it is an unnecessary safety risk. Nevertheless, the membership of FABA voted unanimously at the annual meeting in October 2000 to conduct the anvil shoot at the annual conference. Why? The issue represented by the struggle involving the anvil shoot is whether FABA members and its board of trustees or the ABANA board controls FABA. FABA is a nonprofit educational association incorporated in Florida; neither its corporate charter nor state law permits the board of trustees to relinquish decision-making to another entity. FABA’s chapter membership was granted orally, without conditions attached. Clearly, FABA is bound to abide by the ABANA bylaws and other structured operating principles (Article III-A, Section 2 of the ABANA bylaws), and it has. The bylaws do not ban anvil shoots by chapters, however, and the bylaws may be amended only by the members of ABANA. In addition, there is the issue of whether ABANA is legally asserting a ban on anvil shoots at all ABANA chapter events, and whether it may remove FABA from the ABANA chapter rolls in the present circumstances. President Doug Learn says the 1997 resolution of the board prohibits anvil shoots at all chapter events. You don’t need to be a lawyer or English teacher to see that the 1997 resolution only bans shoots at ABANA-sponsored events, events sponsored by other individuals or organizations that have used ABANA’s name in their promotion of the event, or at any event, Chapter function, etc., sponsored by other individuals or organizations that use ABANA’s Mobile Teaching Station at the event. The Madison conference was not ABANA sponsored, did not use ABANA’s name in promoting the event, and did not use ABANA’s teaching station. Even if the 1997 resolution applies to all chapter events, it is not self-executing. The resolution doesn’t specify what will happen to an individual or organization that contravenes it. At its November 2000 meeting, the ABANA board took up a motion to remove from the chapter rolls any chapter that conducts an anvil shoot; the motion was not passed, however, and was tabled. No ABANA board meeting has been noticed and held since then, so the action of removing the seven Madison chapters is invalid. ABANA is a Georgia corporation, and Georgia law requires that corporate action be taken at a meeting of the board; action may be taken without a meeting if the action is taken by all members of the board and the action is evidenced in writing, signed by each director, for inclusion in the minutes or filing with the corporate records. See OCGA Section 14-2-821. The ABANA board apparently believes that it can take action without a meeting if a majority of its 15 members agree via e-mail to a motion or other action. Since Col. Tim Ryan is a member of the ABANA board, and shot the anvil at Madison, we can be sure that he did not consent to the action of removing the chapters. If ABANA asserts this rule (against anvil shoots at chapter events) that has not been validly adopted, and takes the action of removing chapters even though the action has not been validly approved, there are literally no bounds to what it might do to chapters or its members. The ban on anvil shoots is just the beginning. Expect ABANA to issue requirements that all chapter officials be ABANA members; that 25 percent of all chapter members be ABANA members, and that the chapters print the ABANA president’s messages and the chapter liaison’s letters in their newsletters, among other things. The ABANA board says it is concerned about safety and liability for any anvil shoot mishap. Col. Tim Ryan, who conducted the shoot at Madison, has significant experience conducting anvil shoots and uses a safety barrier and a safe distance between the anvils and observers. FABA only conducts anvil shoots when these necessary precautions have been taken. Other activities at blacksmith conferences and meetings present a far greater potential for injury and negligence claims. What about children getting too close to the anvil or power hammer at a demonstration, observers getting injured by flying scale, flux and metal or from an iron pour? What about people watching demonstrations without safety glasses? What about novices in green coal classes being permitted to use hammers, burning coal, and red-hot iron without adequate supervision? If ABANA is so concerned about safety, it needs to send safety officers to each chapter conference and meeting. By banning anvil shoots, rather than promoting safe and responsible anvil shooting, the ABANA board shows that it cares little for the safety of its members. At the Madison conference an ABANA board spokesperson suggested that we go across the street and shoot the anvil (on land we knew nothing about, and without the means to manage the shoot and audience safely). This approach is reminiscent of Prohibition. Then, people died from drinking alcohol whose quality was not regulated. In addition, ABANA has not cited any legal precedent for an organization such as itself being held liable for the acts of its affiliates, over which it exercises no governance, and we are unaware of any either. In conclusion, the attempt to remove FABA from the ABANA rolls is unfounded and invalid. FABA expects ABANA to comply with its own bylaws and the laws of the state of Georgia. Sincerely, Board of Trustees FABA Patty Draper/FABA -- applecrossforge@nettally.com - Monday, 05/28/01 13:49:55 GMT Tony: "Well establlished facts of human behavior" Fact:we do what we do for the consequences we get from the behavior. Unless the behavior has positive, immediate and certain consequences associated with it, we will not continue to do the behavior. That is we have to get something good from the behavior, we have to get it while doing the behavior and we have to be certain to get it when we do the behavior. Fact: The displeasure you are suffering now is called an "extinction burst" it is caused when behavior that previously brought positive reinforcement is punished or no longer brings positive reinforcement. Fact: We are all different, but behavior is behavior and can be analyzed and the consequences that motivate it can be identified. Fact: You keep referring to "making an anvil shoot safe" that further justifies my argument that the act is in Fact unsafe to start with" If it were safe, why would it need to be "made safe"? Fact: ABANA decided that an anvil shoot was not a behavior that they wanted to encourage so they offered dire consequences if the behavior was demonstrated. The parties that performed the anvil shoot did it with their eyes wide open and were well aware of the consequences. Now it is time for those people to take the lumps associated with the behavior and quit complaining about it. Fact: By your own words, you get a lot of positive reinforcement from an anvil shoot "the thrill I get from doing things like anvil shoots and trebuchet hurls is the enjoyment on peoples faces. When they see it happen, and when their eyes shine when they ask questions and get answers" "Especially the kids! I am "thrilled" to help them have some fun adn learn about something new (or old). I'm also thrilled to see the recognition of the power involved and the acknowledgement of the work that goes into making it relatively safe" That is positive reinforcement for you. You will continue the behavior that brings you the reinforcement you desire. By your own words you have recognized that there is an element of risk involved otherwise why would it have to be made relatively safe and relative to what? Fact: and I will take your word for it, there are two lawyers on the board of ABANA. Did they magically appear or were they elected by a majority vote. As I stated in my post to Paw Paw, if the majority of the membership is unhappy with the board, there has to be a means to remove them immediately. Fact: You do not change rules by breaking them. You change rules by democratic process. To do otherwise results in chaos as is evident by this current chrisis. Last Fact: I make no assumptions about you. The fact that you seem to have taken offense at my opinion makes me thing it was closer to the mark than I imagined. I don't feel the necessity to apoligize for my opinion and if you take offense to it, that is your perogative. Woody Richard A. Hanson -- woody@enetis.net - Monday, 05/28/01 15:50:51 GMT A quote from the first message as a reminder to all. A couple of suggestions. We're all grown ups. We all have different points of view. We all have different ideas. Let's try VERY hard not to let those differences get in the way of constructive conversation. Instead, let's USE those differences to forge a stronger, more benevolent, more member oriented organization! PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Monday, 05/28/01 23:07:10 GMT Woody, extinction burst. I like that one. Grin. I take no offense at your opinion Woody. What I took offense with originally was your apparent desire to force everyone else to agree with you. Of course, you probably know I take offense at much more about you now, but we can discuss that when we may see each other some day. Grin. By the way, you made a few more assumptions about me in your last post as well. Can you find them Woody? Too easy Woody. Circular arguments. Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Tuesday, 05/29/01 00:40:29 GMT Woody, Many of your "Facts" and arguments are without logic and as Tony pointed out DO contain some circular logic. Think hard before making such strong baseless statements in public. Tony's comments on making something safe is based on his skills as an engineer to meet harsh arbitrary rules starting at any point. I know, I've been in the same business. It is also possible to take almost anything that is "safe" and make it dangerous. Neither position indicates the true starting condition. ". . .but behavior is behavior and can be analyzed. . .", I defy ANYONE to determine my motives for most of what I do. It is impossible to determine the illogical from a logical frame of reference. Yes, I admit to doing some illogical and personaly destructive things. If I did not then anvilfire and this forum would not exist. MY, reasons for supporting these chapters has nothing to do with thrill seeking or my personal freedom. But I DO love a good arguement based on logic and fact. I almost always win any argument based on logic (ask my ex-wife or anyone that knows me) but I suspect I would have a hard time besting Tony. The ABANA board's decisions and acts cannot be supported by fact or logic. There are many questions of their legality. They are based on emotional outbursts and misrepresentation of fact. This does not mean they will lose the argument. But if they win it will be a much less intresting and smaller organization. Perhaps this is ABANA's "extinction burst". Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Tuesday, 05/29/01 03:28:11 GMT Jock: Two books by Aubrey Daniels, :Bringing Out the Best In People" and "Performance Management" will explain my statements on behavior. Any behavior can be analyzed and the consequences that motivate the behavior determined. These books will also explain an extinction burst. Thanks for your time and consideration Woody Woody -- woody@enetis.net - Tuesday, 05/29/01 16:12:44 GMT i.e. fact #1 from the list of "well established facts of human behavior" "unless the behavior has positive, immediate and certain consequences associated with it, we will not continue in it." Sounds like one of the "facts" that are produced by those suffering from ivy tower poisoning. What immediate and certain consequence kept faith at Valley Forge. Isn't it a "fact" of human experience that the struggle is often between instant gratification and the uncertain "hope of glory". From dogs to man is not always the surest distance between two points. Larry Sundstrom Moriah Forge Staunton, Va. L. Sundstrom - Tuesday, 05/29/01 21:46:51 GMT Logical Discussion: Yeah, it's hard to come by. But it is a great challenge. Great way to either affirm your position or change it, or just explore it. I, too, have also found that many are not up to it or don't like to participate. They are usually the ones that go away mad. Jock, we used to play a game. Two strong willed, logical, generally tenacious individuals would sit down either in a bar or just anywhere with a case of cold ones. Someone else would pick a topic, dole out sides of the issue and the two strong willed ones would go at it. You didn't get to choose your own side. The crowd would verbally score points and it would go until the crowd declared a winner, the participants declared a winner, or one of the participants was silent for a small amount of time. No written rules. No violence allowed. Questions could not be ignored. Poor logic was generally exposed, but if you could slide one by, well, good for you. Personal insults were generally met with the opposing team getting a point. The crowd could chime in with suggestions. So you generally had two camps having a discussion on a topic through their respective spokesmen. Bu the crowd was kept from segregating also. Sometimes the topic was quite silly. Sometimes a hot button topic. But only the two participants "competed". Any good crowd kibbitzer found himself as a participant in the near future. We found this to be a good alternative to a general group discussion which can get nasty and bad feelings emerge when, as always, we different human beings have different but strongly held viewpoints. I think you would be very good at that game. And I think that game would be a very good way to work on this anvil shooting issue. It was excellent entertainment. People got to voice their opinions on a topic, you knew where everyone stood, but no "direct" confrontation between anyone but the participants. And the participants were generally big enough to know their role in the game and not get too serious. What if we did this at ABANA 2002? Both sides of the issue could pick their participants and a reasonable group of kibbitzers. Would have to practice a little first as a group. On other topics. Just a thought. Grin. But I gotta tell ya Woody, I really like "extinction burst"! Got any more like that? Grin I did forget one thing.... losers had to buy the beer. Grin Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Wednesday, 05/30/01 02:23:05 GMT Debate, Yeah some folks can't take the heat. Those that use poor logic and can't think of a way out DO generaly go away mad. But you have to know your opponent too. Most of my friends are the ones that can take being called out without getting mad and give back as good as they take. But there are those that you know can't take a joke. Those are the folks that when pushed are the ones that break and do bad things (see national news for the past few years). Now debating the WRONG side of an argument is something else. . . But in this case (anvil shoots) there are good points on both sides of the argument. Getting the FACTS out on the table is the hard part. Jock D. -- webmaster@ABANA-Chapter.com - Wednesday, 05/30/01 02:59:07 GMT Jock and Tony: I was rummaging around in my stuff and found an extra copy of Bringing Out the Best in People by Aubrey Daniels, if you would like to read it, let me know and I can send it to you. Oh. by the way, you do what you do for one of two reasons, either to get what you want or to avoid what you don't want. Woody Woody -- woody@enetis.net - Wednesday, 05/30/01 04:24:38 GMT You know, as a law enforcement officer, I dealt with a lot of coundelors, psychologists, and psychiatrists over the years. In all that time, I don't think I ever met more than one or two that had all of their ducks in the same pond. Let's skip the pop psychology shall we, and stick to the matter at hand. But one more historical note, Anvil firing is NOT a uniquely American tradition. It originated in England where the blacksmith would fire his anvil as a new bride and groom passed his shop. Usually, the church was on one end of the main street of the village, and the pub was on the other. As the newlywed couple passed his shop the blacksmith would fire his anvil in recognition of the wedding. Source, ANVIL'S IN AMERICA, by Richard Postman. Now back to the subject. Do we want to try to "repair" ABANA or do we want to form a new organization? PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Wednesday, 05/30/01 21:27:42 GMT No need to ask me twice. I'm ready to assist in establishing a new organization that will appeal to bread and butter 'smiths utilizing as much of todays technology as possible for training and furthering the goals of the hobbyist, semi pro and professional blacksmith. CSI? looks like a good place to launch from. I will be standing by to assist wherever I can. Mills -- mills_fam2@netzero.net - Thursday, 05/31/01 01:57:00 GMT Since I won't be joining ABANA, I'm open to suggestions. I know the lack of rules now in CSI, but as it grows, will the rules still be minimal, or will we run into the same problem? How to assure we don't? If ABANA is to be saved or not, I'd still like to see the anvil shoot deabte as I outlined it. It would be hugely entertaining. Well ,at least to me. Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Thursday, 05/31/01 04:00:20 GMT Tony, Any large organization needs rules in order to function. As long as the governing documents provide for the majority of the members to modify the rules, they work. That's why the representative democracy of the United States has lasted as long as it has. No board should be able to arbitrarily pass new rules affecting the behavior of the membership without being told to do so BY THE MEMEBERSHIP. If you read the ABANA by-laws carefully, you see that several things are missing. Including methods for the membership to control the Board after the election. If the by laws had contained a provision that the board could not pass any rules affecting chapter membership without a guiding vote from the membership, the present situation would never have come about. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Thursday, 05/31/01 17:23:26 GMT Paw Paw, I understand. Kind of like having a rule to not make rules? Hee Hee! I'm pretty good at looking at something and identifying what can go wrong. I'd be more than happy to help review any set of rules that gets put together. Just don't ask me to put a set of rules together. I'm really bad at rules. Both ways. Unless they are the ones I previously mentioned. The 10 plus 1. Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Thursday, 05/31/01 19:15:37 GMT Currently the CSI is a support group for anvilfire. Many of us would like to see it be more. Perhaps using ABANA's charter as a place not to start. ABANA's charter is one of those things that when the membership was 100 it worked. However ABANA has a membership of approx 4,500. But the charter effects a far larger number of Chapter members that are not ABANA members. This number may be in the neighborhood of another 5,000 to 10,000. If the number was not significant ABANA would not be insisting on there being 25% of chapter members being ABANA members. This also means that if you include chapter members we have a large non-voting membership. YES, 25% IS the correct number according to the current ABANA documents (Mutual_responsibilities.pdf March 9, 2001) even though many including board members have reported lower numbers. And that is the problem with both our current representitive government and organizations like ABANA. Today it is possible to poll vast numbers of voters or members in a brief period of time. The system of representitive government was designed when there was no "instant communication". But this brings up new problems. Mob rule is not pretty. Almost everyone in a riot takes part in the destruction as do lynch mobs take part in murder. There must be some tempering and guidence as well as consistancy of action. Direct vote on everything does not work. Say ABANA had a general vote on anvil shoots with not strings attached. Would that be fair? Suppose that caused ABANA's insurance to become more than the currrent dues and immediately bankrupted the organization. The "fair" vote would be based on a proposal including the FACTS. Examlple: To allow anvil shoots the following would be enacted by this vote. 1) Dues increased to $100/yr to cover the costs plus expected lost membership. 2) Anvil shoots would be held according to strict guidelines by trained personell only. 3) Each attendee at every event would pay or the local chapter pay per attendee the amount of $2 to be paid to the insurace company (they almost ALWAYS have a per unit fee). 4) The Chapter or sponsoring group would be required to have libility insurance (on top of ABANA's) in the amount of $#,###,### including a proviso that said insurance company contract would cover all board member legal fees. 5) This vote will not be ratified until 65% of the current membership pays the membership increase of $65 each. As you can see, the above is mostly about COSTS. There are always costs to doing anything. In this case the insurance companies are pulling the strings. The issue of ABANA controlling the chapters is the insurance company wanting to limit their libility. If there are 10 anvil shoots in one year there is X libility BUT if there is 100 then the libility and the probability of something going wrong has gone up 10X. If the current ABANA policy is a flat rate based on ONE conference and office libility then there is a big difference between THAT and what may be required. Currently states like California have a system where voters can vote for almost anything without regard for costs. If each new law had the cost per voter spelled out AND those costs were levied immediately then the voters would be agreeing that X is right AND we are willing to will pay for it. There ARE ways to handle this situation. If costs (libility and otherwise) are a problem then we need to address them. But using disinformation, withholding information or just plain lying is NOT the way to handle the problem. Arguing or even calm debate is pointless without the facts or a plan. I think that what the vocal majority has said it that we want a PLAN. Maybe the costs in our modern lawyer run world are too high. The members want the board to find the costs and come up with a plan. THEN the members or the board could have a vote based on an informed decision. So, the real problem is that the ABANA charter has no method of resolving this type issue other than letting the board use their own methods within Roberts Rules of Order. Jock D. -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Thursday, 05/31/01 19:40:57 GMT I’m not an expert in government! But I know this to be a fact. With few exceptions, what I do, affects my immediate neighbors, wherever I am. Not anyone that is more than 5 miles away. So who should I be accountable to but my immediate neighbors? Yes, I must also be accountable to the new locality when I travel. And there must be some commonality of some rules from one area to another to make that efficient. Or to be more on topic, why on earth does ABANA have to have any liability when a chapter does an anvil shoot, or a pig roast, or a car wash or a blacksmithing demo? Why can’t the relationship between the ABANA board and the chapters be more arms length? Why does the ABANA board have to control the chapters at all? Why can’t the primary purpose of ABANA be to collect and disseminate information but let the chapters conduct their business and use ABANA materials at their own discretion? Who is, or must be, affected by an anvil shoot besides the people that are there and the surrounding neighbors who may hear it? Personally, I think people should be *required* to vote. With penalty for not voting. On all topics. With complete information including costs per capita. As Jock said, it is so easy to communicate now. We have no *need* for representation in my opinion. Only a vote totaller and a recorder. The only people I know that want representation, are those who do not trust themselves to make an informed decision. Or those who don’t have the stomach to solve their own local issues. And there appears to be a lot of them. And THAT is what I consider to be the real problem. Lack of education of the general population. And lack of desire to solve your own problems. Yes, we must have a common *government* to handle things like foreign aggression. We must stand united on many issues. But why would we ALL not vote on those issues we must be united on? Take NOTHING for granted. Question it all. When it is no longer locally controlled, the locality loses control. And here’s the real rub.... In the end, the locality will exercise control anyway. At some point, any representative will cross the line and the electing locality will remove them. So, even if you want to get rid of the responsibility, eventually, you will have to take control back. History is full of examples. Civil wars, anvil shoots, etc. Here’s another reality. You can’t make rule verbage that fairly covers all real human circumstances. Inevitably, the innocent will be punished unfairly by rules. However, if rules are administered locally, the intent of the rule, which is usually good, is much easier to follow. And if it is abused locally, the locals are much more likely to deal with the administrator of the rule. If it weren’t for rules and laws, I could, and would, solve all of my problems locally. And I would do it fairly. Yes, really! I can do that. Just another example of the fact that I was born at least 100 years too late. Grin. Given where we are on this matter, as I understand it. ABANA will become smaller until it is again small enough to mostly satisfy it’s members. The pendulum swings. First there is no ABANA, but there is a desire for one. Then there is an ABANA, and it is good. Then ABANA gets to big for it’s britches and many members are disgruntled and leave. And ABANA redefines itself and gets smaller again until it is self supporting. Rest assured, ABANA WILL change because of this. Since I have left out much detail, sure, you can pick this apart. But before you do that, please try to run with the spirit of it and see where it may take you. Or just consider it useless drivel and a waste of bandwidth. Your choice. My intent is to invoke thought. Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Thursday, 05/31/01 21:29:44 GMT Voting and responsibility, I agree on all the above. However, my drivel on costs and insurance is what the ABANA board worries about and was my attempt to the kind of solution they would possibly live with. But as you pointed out, enerita may have a lot to do with the problem. With the chapters on the rise the central organization may need to take second place for a while or until the pendulum swings the other way. Or perhaps it is time for an all new organization. Jock D. -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Friday, 06/01/01 07:25:09 GMT Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com wrote: "why on earth does ABANA have to have any liability when a chapter does an anvil shoot, or a pig roast, or a car wash or a blacksmithing demo? Why can’t the relationship between the ABANA board and the chapters be more arms length? Why does the ABANA board have to control the chapters at all? Why can’t the primary purpose of ABANA be to collect and disseminate information but let the chapters conduct their business and use ABANA materials at their own discretion? " Actually that is a very cogent distillation of the opinion of most FABA members that I have spoken to on this subject, including myself and whats more, it contains the basic idea of what I've been kicking around as a 'replacement' for ABANA. There must be a legal way to create an 'affliation' without implying liability. It may be something as simple as a declaration of 'the Association does not control or guide its members in any manner and is not liable in any manner whatsoever for the actions of its members'. I've already suggested that there must be something like that between Better Business Bureaus and members of the BBB, so there is probably a template available. Much of the ABANA/anvil shoot question centers on the assertion that ABANA will be liable. Cut the liability linkage and you cut the problem unless ABANA simply cannot accept that the chapters are their own organizations, independent of the control of ABANA. In the best of all possible worlds, if FABA wants to have an anvil shoot, the liability should rest solely on FABA. So I would suggest that one aspect of the 'new organization' (one suggested name was the Confederated Smiths of America or the CSA) would be to incorporate the 'arms-length' concept as a fundamental principle. Steve Steve Bloom -- sab@blacksmithing.org - Friday, 06/01/01 15:39:50 GMT I don't know the history of the chapter system but I suspect that originaly it was groups of ABANA members that wanted local meetings. Since everyone was a member of the main organization the requirements that they follow the organizations rules was proper. However, as the over time the requirement for chapters to be become independent non-profit corporate entities evolved. Along with that came chapter members that were not ABANA members. Now you have two classes of membership. One represented on the ABANA board, the others not. This complicates things significantly. You have the ABANA board, ABANA members, Chapters and chapter members. Some individual's clasifications overlapping and others not. Much too complicated for a small organization to administer, especialy with a structure that was not designed for it. Jock D. -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Friday, 06/01/01 16:08:56 GMT Jock, I suspect you are 100% correct on the evolution. Time for a change. Maybe disenfranchised chapter members could be polled on what they want in an organization. And the same polling could be requested on the guru, vhammerin and home pages. Then someone could distill and propose a structure and charter. Even if a new organization is not formed, the structure and charter could be used as a proposal for redefining ABANA. Not all smiths will be cybersmiths (internet users) I suspect. Anvilfire is great, but does, or can it serve the non internet smiths? Steve, I have to believe the arms length thing is legally doable too. Someone must step up and take the initiative. To be honest, that is not my cup of tea. Like I said, I am not good at making rules. But I can critique. Tony -- tca_b@mmmilwpc.com - Friday, 06/01/01 17:12:00 GMT The CSI could serve non-cyber smiths if it were a larger organization. However, I am not prepared to so at anvilfire. That would mean doing print publications and bulk mailings on top of the web-site. I cannot do both without a LOT of help (about a $150K budget). In this type situation I would prefer to play guru while someone else worried about a hard copy business. Part of the miscomunication problem that ABANA has now is the board has relied TOO much on documents posted on the website and has not mailed hard copies to many of the ABANA Chapter leaders. Its a trend that is also seen in our government that I find very disturbing. You almost can't file your taxes because the U.S. govenernment won't mail you extra forms you request and refers you to their website. Prior to that they expected you to have an office copier. This is fine for those of us that are "wired" and have laser printers and such but our government should not EXPECT it. Especialy when "minimum" wage isn't enough to even support having a telephone or automobile much less fancy office equipment. . It is definitely creating a wider split between those that "have" and those that "have not". I've been on the fringe of the "have not" for a long time. It is very easy to slip into and very hard to get out of. Especially when someone says "submit that in triplicate, here is one copy". Or "I'll FAX you a copy. Then file it in triplicate". . . . No copier, no FAX, no phone or automobile and you don't exist in our "modern" economy. Jock D. -- webmasters@anvilfire.com - Saturday, 06/02/01 22:10:16 GMT The following is from Barry Meyers and was distributed to various Chapter officials and to anvilfire. Mr. Kagele, please forward this letter to Doug Learn as I cannot find his address and wish him to know of our feelings regarding the recent dismissal of our Chapter and the other Chapters of the Southeastern Region. Dear Sir: As incoming president of the Southeastern Region Blacksmiths Conference, Inc. (SERBC) and vice-president of the Philip Simmons Artist Blacksmith Guild of South Carolina, it is incumbent on me to make a statement about the expulsion of the seven former Chapters of ABANA that host the SERBC. We are not angry with ABANA. We are angry with President Doug Learn and the ABANA Board because they would not work with the Southeastern chapters concerning this problem. We want President Learn and the ABANA Board to realize that we are not easily cowed by a groundless edict. We resent being dismissed by President Learn. We in the Philip Simmons Guild further resent that we haven't been formerly notified by ABANA in a letter to our President, Robert Hill, III. Do not look for reapplication to ABANA because we did not withdraw in the first place. If ABANA changes it's mind, asks us to come back into ABANA (after doing away with their petty anvil shoot policy), I will try to lead my organization in that direction, as I think all of the SERBC board members will. At the Conference, we were informed by an ABANA Board member that the policy has never been voted on by the ABANA Board. Had the policy been approved by the Board, it may not have prevented the anvil shooting, but it would have had the weight of the Board. It would have still been a silly, petty, uninformed edict, but it would have had the weight of the Board. >From the recent publication of the 1997 Anvil Shooting Policy (that I have seen since the Conference), I take the following: "No Anvil Shoot or like form of public entertainment by propelling anvils into the air will be scheduled, conducted, allowed, or directly or indirectly advertised, publically [sic] announced or noted: "1. At any ABANA sponsored public or private event; "2. At any event sponsored by any other individuals or organizations who have used ABANA's name in their promotion of the event; "3. At any event, Chapter function, school or demonstration sponsored by other individuals or organizations that borrow, rent, or use ABANA's Mobile Teaching Station at the event of any other ABANA equipment or property." This Conference was not a public event, nor was it ABANA sponsored. The Conference did not use ABANA's name in its promotion, nor did the Conference use the Mobile Teaching Station. We had insurance. All of the Southeastern chapters were asked months before the Conference about having an anvil shoot. At the Conference, all agreed to have a shoot except AFC who stayed neutral until their yearly meeting of their members. That didn't seem to matter to the ABANA board. One chapter is apparently no better than another to President Learn. The members of other expelled chapters as well as those who have not yet been expelled are brothers and sisters in blacksmithing and it will stay that way. We will keep exchanging newsletters with the other ABANA chapters if they wish to reciprocate and keep us updated on where to send them. Our organizations will not promote ABANA as it stands now, although we still share and will promote the goals and ideals that brought us to ABANA in the first place. Jock D. -- webmasters@anvilfire.com - Sunday, 06/03/01 01:22:50 GMT Just wanted to throw our support your way, check in the mail for CSI. We prefer to belong to a group of people who promote blacksmithing, not tear it apart. Jock and Paw-Paw, keep up the great work. Melissa -- forgelady@msn.com - Sunday, 06/03/01 04:49:19 GMT Thankee, Mam! (you can hit me at Spring Fling! (grin) PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Sunday, 06/03/01 10:42:31 GMT . While mulling over the ins and out of this question, I realized that there is one interesting aspect that has been overlooked. (1) The ABANA Boards rationale centers on a 'smart lawyer' extending liability from a chapter accident to ABANA; (2) ABANA revoked the charters in a manner that violates ABANA by-laws, written procedures and state regulations concerning how boards like ABANA are required to operate, thus causing some individuals to assert that the charters are still in force; (3) If there should be an accident among the 7 revokees, would not the 'smart lawyer' simply assert that the liability linkage still exists since the charters were not officially and legally revoked? (4) So, if ABANA is solely concerned over liability linkage, does it not have to enact specific guidelines concerning revocation, identify anvil-shooting as a violation that will trigger revocation, then wait for the next time since letting matters stand as they are currently does not guarantee that ABANA will not be sued if there is an accident among the 'revoked' chapters. I see no middle grounds here and will spend my energies looking for alternatives to a multi-chapter linkage other than ANANA, but I think ABANA might just like to consider doing the divorce properly. Steve Bloom -- sab@blacksmithing.org - Monday, 06/04/01 12:22:36 GMT There is really no good way open a bad subject but mills did it,an anvil firing is really a bad choice for a recreational diversion not only that is a waste of an anvil which in my opinon should be used for creating things of art from shoes to knives I know how bad I would feel if a bunch of fellow smiths were hurt during a shoot or if some child wanted to try this on his or her own I myself hope to spend my time to teach children more love for the craft and the history behind all that I do Thanks , Ralph Hinton Hinton Ralph -- GRND14me@aol.com - Tuesday, 06/05/01 02:33:48 GMT AS I sit here at the computer i sit in awe.As im not a member of any group or CLUB Im amazed at the fact that an old trade is coming back to life and i say coming back to life because ive been making knives and swords the old way for 20 years I didnt even know that abana existed till I got this computer 2 years ago but Ive been pounding my brains out for fun . IF IM mistaken Iam sure you will tell me but WHO BROUGHT THIS GROUP TOGTHER more groups are great but,IF we dont try to make things right with this group where will it end if things dont work out again its going to snow ball then we are back to square 1 you all have a foundation to work with thats why you have a membership you need to help make these things better for youreself Remember there is strength in numbers use that to your benifit GOOD LUCK Hinton Ralph -- GRND14me@aol.com - Tuesday, 06/05/01 03:00:45 GMT Previously some discussion centered around the name ABANA and others using parts of it as if it were a copyright. Based on other discussions in this forum, I like what I've heard before regarding a new name. BANANA - Blacksmith Association of North America (NOT ARTIST). Ernie -- dorhill@netdoor.com - Wednesday, 06/06/01 15:57:00 GMT All, For informational purposes. I just received a report that the NC group voted last night to sever all connection with ABANA. We will be voting on a name change, at our next meeting. We do need to re-write our by-laws, and I will probably be involved in that. Our representatives to the Board of Dictators have been instruted to tell ABANA that we will not be back. Jock, I will contact the president about maintaining our web site. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Wednesday, 06/06/01 17:38:53 GMT I recieved the following from Ernie Dorrill. It makes a lot of sense. I thought I'd mention why I believe we have so many problems with ABANA at present. No.1, someone mentioned earlier that the organization has changed in the last 25 yrs. from about 25 members to 4,500+. With that change comes fair representation of all members. At present, all 15 board members could be elected from Hawaii, Louisiana, or Ontario Canada. There is no equal representation on the board for different regions of North America. Equal representation would assure more accountability of individual members to their respective regions. Further, only that region could vote for their own members, not someone 3 hours away that they never heard of. If that board member did not perform, he/she could be voted off (regional majority vote) the board by that region and replaced. There could be six regions (NE, SE, MW, NW, SW and Canada. Reduce the number of Board members to 12 with two from each region. There we would have accountability and representation without any "clicks" being formed or hopefully they would be somewhat discouraged. Needs of the SE may be vastly different from the Mid West or South West and the "group think" may be avoided. Just thinking out loud. There are many other suggestions that may work but if things remain the same, it will be a lose lose situation and no one will win. ------------------------------------ Ernie's idea has a lot of merit and is a keen obsevation. It might also be suggested to make representation based on numbers OR via a "board of presidents". I'm going to talk to our local president about this idea this weekend. Jock Dempsey -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Thursday, 06/07/01 05:26:45 GMT ABANA - No, its not a trademark or copywritable. There are numerous other groups that use the same acconyme. American Bar Association of North America is one. Plus there is a town in Turkey with the name Abane, spelled ABANA in English and there is a URL for the town WWW.ABANA.COM. There is no web site but the URL is registered. We researched this subject in depth before setting up this site, ABANA-Chapter.com. SO, Doug Learn's demand that NCABANA stop using it was without any grounds or force of law. It was simple bullying. Maybe he would like to take on the American Bar Association too. . . Jock Dempsey -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Thursday, 06/07/01 05:38:27 GMT I am a woman. I live in Austalia. I bought my husband, an avid hobby blacksmith, a subscription to ABANA for his birthday several years ago (don't you all wish you had wives like me!!) and he has continued to receive it ever since. I have read with interest all this stuff on ABANA and anvil firing. It seems to me, as an outsider, that the anvilfiring issue has been a catalyst for chapters to break away from ABANA, a process that would have happened anyway, but maybe not so soon. There seems to be a fair deal of disenchantment with ABANA and what is does and how it works. I can't comment on that. But I can comment on anvil firing. We had one at our place a couple of years ago, when the local group (Artist Blacksmiths Association of NSW) had a meeting and forge in here. My son at the time was into making gunpowder and fireworks etc. Boys will be boys!!! He organised it. We were very careful. And it was spectacular.Everyone enjoyed it. What is wrong with up holding traditions such as these. Wendy Tanner -- snowy@key.net.au - Thursday, 06/07/01 10:22:32 GMT But the group from North Carolina will probably change our name at the next meeting. Not becuase we're intimidated by doug his own grave, but because we no longer wish to be identified with the group he "presides" over. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Thursday, 06/07/01 13:45:06 GMT There was an article in the Anvil's Ring about 3 or 4 years ago about safety. It was about a person entering a shop, looking up at the cealing and asking if something up there might fall on him and he also looked around on the floor and wondered if he might trip or get hurt on all the "stuff" (including power hammer)that was scattered throughout the shop. This is paraphrased but the conclusion was, by the author, to suggest the individual go home, if he could trust other drivers to not hit him while in route, or that he not stumble on the steps to his front door. The author said this was the kind of individual he never wanted in his shop or at any blacksmithing event - he was an accident looking for a place to happen. I wonder if safety is really the issue? Ernie -- dorhill@netdoor.com - Friday, 06/08/01 17:57:42 GMT Ernie, I don't think safety is the issue. I think safety is a smoke screen. I think the REAL issue is control. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 06/08/01 23:26:17 GMT Wendy from OZ. Glad to know your shoot went safely. There are a lot of things that can go wrong but if you have lots of open space distance greatly reduces the hazzards to virtually nill. The biggest problem is firing poorly made anvils or cast iron anvils. If a small piece wieghing a pound or so broke off, theoreticaly it could be propelled hundreds of times the distance the anvil normally would. In the real world not ALL the power of the explosion is going to propell that part. But there can still be a significant multiplier. So distance is VERY important. The two groups that fire anvils most often in the US use dedicated anvils and special stands. The one I've seen close up has the bottom anvil welded to a piece of steel plate about 2 feet square. This keeps the base stable and distributes the load across a large surface. Even then I've seen it sink into the ground a bit! This setup also has a sloping piece of angle iron attached to support the black powder "fuse". I would like to see some standards published with ratios of black powder vs. anvil weight with a given throw distance. I think some people involved in this arguement fire the anvil much further than needed. I've been at shoots where the anvil only traveled 10 to 20 feet and everyone was thougoughly impressed. There is also a 100 year old photo circulating around with a crowd of people standing within about 20 feet of a row of anvils being shot simulteanously. Now THAT was crazy! However, it looked like the anvils may have only been "hoping" a couple feet. I'm sure this still made a great BANG and everyone had a great time. But if someone quadrupled the powder and an anvil flew 40-50 feet and landed in the crowd. . . . It would have been a VERY sad day. And THAT is what is wrong with a lot of this argument. Banning the practice and ignoring that people are going to do it anyway means there is no safe guard system in place. Set rules or guidelines and then the chance of something going wrong is much less. Jock D. -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Saturday, 06/09/01 22:37:05 GMT Hinton, Actually this group was brought together by Jock Dempsey of Anvilfire. Some of us are members of ABANA, some are not. Some are members of their state organizations, some are not. Some of the state organizations that some of us belong to are not ABANA chapters, some are. We come from all different backgrounds, but we all share a love of blacksmithing, and a love of justice. Not a love of power, a love of justice. I'm pretty well convinced that the ABANA leadership has a love of power. I refuse to be a part of any such group. If I had known where ABANA was going, I would never have joined in the first place. When my membership comes due, you can bet your last nickle that I won't be renewing. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Tuesday, 06/12/01 18:51:23 GMT Most national organizations require membership fees. If there are state affiliates, then your immediately a member. To support local activities, many times the national organization will forward 20 percent (+/-) to the local chapter or state affiliate for each member in the national organization in that state. This way there's one fee and you belong to both the national and the state affiliate organization. Of course, for ABANA to make this change, the by-laws would need changing to indicate this through a vote of the majority of the membership. I don't believe this change could be made except through a vote from the entire membership. There are many other options and opportunities to address issues that have previously surfaced and the above is just one of a great number. Opportunities for discussion such as this are very valuable in discerning the most appropriate course of action. I was once told that an "IDEA" is the worse possible thing to have, when it is the only one you've got! Ernie -- dorhill@netdoor.com - Tuesday, 06/12/01 20:34:10 GMT That is the normal structure of most chapter based organizations. But ABANA is not setup that way. AND they are trying to control the chapters like they are member organizations in more than word. The only true connection is use of an acronym that doesn't belong to the organization. . . Jock D. -- webmaster@anvilfire.com - Tuesday, 06/12/01 21:03:11 GMT FYI The ABANA Board consists of 15 members from 14 states so representation is pretty spread out. dave -- lama@lametalsmiths.org - Monday, 06/18/01 06:34:26 GMT info: I am a member of AFC, I don't speak for anyone but myself. I was present at the Anvil shoot.(I'm the one in the white shirt left of the smoke in the picture posted in the Anvilfire news, videoing the shoot. The first one I ever saw I might add. I enjoyed it tremendously. When it went off after the blast and I heard the anvil ring, a deep appriciation of knowing a tradition of Blacksmith I have heard and read about came to past. I had to work the day AFC voted to support ABANA's stand on the issue. If I had been there I would of voted to shoot. but that doesn't count. The vote was close, in my oppinion which still doesn't count much, was not enough on such an issue to make a stand. But as I said I was not at the meeting to vote, so I should not gripe. But ABANA's stand, made up my mind, to never attend or support any event they have any thing to do with. Guys I want to thank ya'll (that's a southern word meaning you all) for all the help and friends made over this site. Jock, Kiwi, Paw Paw, in by book you guys are tops. Is there life without ABANA? Well I made it ok before I knew there was a power hungry, in control, bunch of leaders like this in leadership. So I'm going to try to truge on and learn from people not so hung up on themselves. I think they care more about the passing on of true blacksmithing to me and others, than selfserving Abanaites who seek power. nuff said. two lawyers? no wonder they have problems worse than having two wifes. Jim Wolfe -- jwolfe@sonet.net - Tuesday, 06/19/01 08:14:58 GMT Jim Wolfe, I appreciate the compliment, but Jock does most of the work. It looks like this forum for discussion of the ABANA situation was a good idea that didn't pan out. We're not getting many new folks. Paw Paw Wilson -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 06/29/01 17:01:17 GMT I've been watching and reading with interest the fracas about abana and its stand on anvil shooting. I joined Illinois Valley Blacksmith Association about four years ago. Its a wonderful organization, I've met many fine people who have helped me in the learning process. When I joined IVBA I assumed I would join abana soon, too. I soon picked up on a little of the power struggle even before knowing about the anvil shoot issue. I can satisfy my needs for instruction on a more regional and local scope,and now, thanks to the internet and anvilfire, right here in my own home. Right there I believe I just put my finger on the crux of the abana problem: they have gone from an educational organization to a springboard for self-promotion of the few. I believe abana has become too narrow in its appeal, and at least some of those in power are ill-advised and have outsmarted themselves to the hurt of the blacksmithing community in general. My own personal opinion about anvil shoots is that it is the least interesting aspect of blacksmithing I can think of. I also want to add that I am very impressed by the work of the artists in abana and I have seen some of their demos that are very inspiring. I aspire to produce work of the same calibre! It appears to me that if they press the membership % requirement of the chapters it will require more dictatorial tactics that will be counterproductive. The membership potential is there, but rapidly evaporating because of the foolish battleground abana has chosen. It boggles my mind that they would evict even one member,let alone seven chapters!!! I hope it becomes an organization that I will feel like I want to join,but it looks very doubtful. Also in the past 2 yrs I've discovered anvilfire and the guru and all who are supplying what is lacking in abana. I intend to subscribe to CSI. Thanks to all who keep anvilfire working and better than ever. Richard Stephens -- rstephen@dstream.net - Sunday, 07/01/01 07:37:03 GMT You know, the most predictable thing about life for me is unpredictability itself. And Murphys Law. It is quite easy for me to have a hundred irons in the fire ( figurativly speaking ). I really have just started to learn a lot of things about blacksmithing, after several years of beating iron. I have FEW things I can call my own in the context of creating something from scratch on the anvil or tooling. I try to learn something each day. Interesting conversations about humans earlier, and their behavour. And rules, and Governing Bodies. Very interesting. No spell checker, so I'll let it fly ! An organization I've been a member of for 20 years had a tough time in it's initial stages: Many wanted things their way, and rules for rules, and the pause for Mr. Clause (ad naseum). They came up with 61 rules of conduct and organizational requirements. Then some real smart guy wrote rule 62. " Don't take yourself so damn seriously ". Things lightened up a bit, and the former 61 rules were cast away. And the real stuff started happening in a positive manner. I'm glad I never joined ABANA. Many good engagements here on this forum pro and con ( anvil shoots ). Our country ( U.S. ) is in the process of legislating many things. Morality to safety; And Jim Wilson hit the nail on the head. Power. It is HEALTHY to challenge each others views from time to time. Give me a job to do at work, and I'll do it. Some of those jobs are bound by laws ( of man, State mostly ). So what. Just do it. Start changing your mind, and coming up with " new and improved " ideas in the middle of the job, and you will get my approval, 'cause if you don't like the results, you told me to do it that way. I'm not a machine, but over the last 30 years of Government and Corporation work, I've learned to be a conformist to a degree. I wear seatbelts to skip the fine. Any organization that trys to tell me how to conduct my business ( say I'm an anvil shooter by trade ) won't even see the dust when I leave. I'm not much of a joiner anyway. See, this 'puter deal ( internet ) is really an impersonal thing. Somebody in an organization is asked a question about something regarding the organization ( via E Mail ) and a reply comes back thats kinda snotty in my opinion. Short sided and chopped off. Heck, the fella might just be a nice guy, and I might be the one off base. I'm fairly new to this cyberspace deal anyway. AS I see it, places like this are kinda like a bathroom wall anyway. And I waste a lot of time on this thing, when I could be sweatin' and makin some more money. BUT, many people contribute priceless entries to places like this, and I learn more in the time it takes to read it than I might have learned in a lifetime. So maybe it isn't all wasted. This dissertation is turning into a long deal. The REAL question is, will there be a group of Blacksmiths that have enough sense to elect a group of " Trusted Servant " leaders to guide the masses of smiths ? I think so, yes. I have faith. Jim Wolfe's right. 2 lawyers worse than 2 wives. Steve O'Grady -- lforge@netins.net - Thursday, 07/12/01 11:42:39 GMT Boy, what a ramble that was! I suspect the point was freedom. And independence. Tony I believe said it ( and I ain't gonna go back now to re-read ) the way it is. I believe in the 10 commandments. Life's pretty simple that way. And being a mortal man, I'm free to make all the mistakes I want. And the good lord will forgive me I ask. Corporations and groups are another story. Start dictating rules and regulations, give us cards to get in the gate, monitor our work with cameras and it's time to part company. All this drivel and I ain't even a member of the group I'm attacking ! If I had been a member of it for a number of years though, and the resulting action that's taken place recently had effected me on a personal level, I'd be upset. But so what. Time to move on in a positive manner. I support Anvilfire. It's full of humans, and there will be contraversy sometimes. I think we can overcome the obstacles though, and I've learned a lot. Thanks Jock, Kiwi and Paw Paw ( and the list of demo folks ). Who knows, maybe I can contribute something someday. Steve O'Grady -- lforge@netins.net - Thursday, 07/12/01 19:34:19 GMT Steve, Stop being so humble! (grin) You contribute just by being present. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Friday, 07/13/01 01:59:03 GMT Now that a lot of the feathers have settled to the ground I would like to add 3 comments: 1. From a Chapter standpoint I do not think that getting tossed will hurt a bit. I am a member of the Alex Bealer Blacksmithing Assn in the Atlanta area and we are growing. I do not know what ABANA has done for our chapter as such. 2. From the standpoint of the Southeastern Regional Conference, I do not see that this will stop or adversely effect that event either. 3. It is in the area of ABANA and individual memberships that I think the most effect will be felt. This event has been a turn-off to some non-members who might have joined ABANA. I personally have had a long-time unhappiness with past ABANA boards actions. Mr. Learn, the new ABANA president, has published that he wants to get on with blacksmithing and cut out the recriminations. He stated that he wants openness and transparency in the Board's dealings. He indicated that he has been struck by the lack of input from ABANA members and I have e-mailed a request for ABANA to make a request that Minutes of the Board Meetings be published in the ABANA website IN PLAIN TEXT. Currently they are there with the use of a PDF "Reader" and the one they furnish will not download into a Windows 95 format so that this member cannot read ABANA Board Minutes and I suspect a lot of other members cannot either. This is not "openness'. If one takes the time to go back through past "president's messages" in the Anvil's Ring it is easy to see that promises sometimes just don't happen. Giving Mr. Learn the benefit of assuming that he really wants openness and transparency the question still remains CAN he bring it to pass? I doubt it, but I am willing to wait a while to see. There are a lot of other ways to make it happen. Publishing on the website the agenda of the Board for the next meeting well in advance so that members might express their feelings to Board Members would be a BIG step in the right direction if we could all read it in plain text. For now the Board is well insulated from the membership. In my opinion they like it that way. John L. Myers -- lecount@mindspring.com - Saturday, 07/14/01 23:43:49 GMT John, > In my opinion they like it that way. Except that I think your brush MAY be a little too broad, I'm strongly inclined too agree. There are still two or three members of the board who have some ethics. PPW - Monday, 07/16/01 01:02:56 GMT PAW PAW I stand corrected. Please change my last sentence to read "In my opinion a MAJORITY of the Board likes it like that. You are right. John L. Myers -- lecount@mindspring.com - Tuesday, 07/17/01 18:50:24 GMT John, Wasn't really trying to correct you per se. Just wanted to clarify. And I'm sure that at least a couple members are not in agreement, but they are "muzzled" by the majority. Which flies in the face of doug (his own grave, can't seem to) learn's protestations of "openness". PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Tuesday, 07/17/01 23:40:19 GMT Has anyone heard if ABANA is trying to fix the problem with the chapters before it goes too far? It seems to me the only intelligent thing for them to do is make enough changes in the by-laws to satify the chapters independence issues and thereby insulating themselves from the legalities. Both the chapters and ABANA are stronger together. Solve this and lets go back to the shop! John Butler -- jgbutler@sprintmail.com - Friday, 08/03/01 22:16:55 GMT John B. This is personal opinion, but I think the ball is in ABANA'S court. They are the ones that made the dictatorial moves, and it's up to them to back off. I know *I* will not be re-newing my membership. I get very little from ABANA. A slick magazine of pretty pictures of work that I will never be able to do, and get very little information from. The Hammer's Blow is a little better than the Anvil's Ring in that respect, but it's on slick paper now, and I suspect it's going the same way that the Anvil's Ring did. PPW -- pawpaw@paw-paws-forge.com - Saturday, 08/04/01 22:52:10 GMT Hi. I see that the server has upgraded to the new apache. The default page has replaced our index. My question is how to get it back to the index page. I apologize if I missed an email about this subject. Is there any other effects on the website?? NYSDB Webmaster -- thedeafmute@hotmail.com - Monday, 08/06/01 23:08:52 GMT Hey, are we discussing the constitution and religion here yet? Just blatantly and selfishly prodding...... Wishing for good discourse among like minded and not so like minded. Tony -- tca_b@rrmilwpc.com - Friday, 09/21/01 15:01:10 GMT Just an observation that over the past several months since this discussion began about anvil shoots (safety), I'm somewhat supprised that this is the only issue brought forward by ABANA. Some areas that should receive attention, probably more since they occur on a much more frequent basis, are the issues of power hammer use, forge welding, hot cutting, etc., not just anvil shoots. If we're talking about liability, these other issues and concerns take us much further and can be equally damaging if not more so. Why hasn't ABANA banned these activities since they can be considered safety hazards equal to if not greater than anvil shoots? Ernie - Thursday, 09/27/01 14:36:40 GMT Ernie, great minds think alike. I brought this exact topic up at a meeting last month, and nobody really wanted to touch it. But I'm the new guy to the group, and don't know what will happen to the discussion on these topics next time we get together. Tony, 2nd amendment, and God Bless America ! Ten Steve O'Grady - Monday, 10/01/01 19:46:21 GMT I strongly support FABA and other chapters decision to anvil shoot. I believe it is time to remove the current administration from ABANA, it has become artist who use metal as a medium and not blacksmiths who do art on the side. It may be time to start a new organization or reorganize the current national organization to remove the term "artist". WE ARE BLACKSMITHS! Michael Wood -- woodranc@eoni.com - Wednesday, 10/03/01 05:55:27 GMT In reply to Michael Wood, and because sometimes I just cannot resist stiring the pot (grin). I am becoming a bit confused about this whole thing. Who should we hate, first it was the President of ABANA because he forbid the shooting of anvils, then it was the Board of Directors becasue they had 2 lawyers on the board, now it is ABANA itself because they allow artists to be members and use the word "Artist" in the name of the organization. If you would care to remove the some of all of the current board members, it can be done by simply calling a meeting for that expressed purpose, then getting a two thirds majority of the vote at the meeting. Problem solved, remove any or all the board members that way. I really think you should start your own organization. May I suggest a name for it? The Taliban, oops that one is already taken but perhaps if you asked nicely they wouldn't mind sharing. have a great day. Woody Richard A. Hanson -- woody@rushmore.com - Sunday, 10/14/01 23:23:25 GMT Michael: Sometimes I just cannot resist giving the pot a quick stir. (Grin) I don't consider myself quite good enough to be called a blacksmith yet, and if you saw my work, the only art title that would even come close to fitting would be abstract but I am an ABANA member and I agree with the actions of the current administration. I am a bit confused, who is it that we are against now, first it was the President of ABANA because he forbid the shooting of anvils. Then it was the Board of Directors because they had 2 lawyers on the board. Now is it all of ABANA because they allow "Artists" into the organization. I agree with you, you need to start a new organization, may I suggest a name for it, how about the "Taliban". Oops that one is already taken, but perhaps if you ask them nice they will be willing to share with you. If you are serious about removing the current administration of ABANA, I suggest you read the by laws there is a way to do it. All you have to do is call a meeting for the expressed purpose of removing the selected member(s) and then at that meeting obtain a two thirds majority of the people in attendance. have a great day Woody Richard A. Hanson -- woody@rushmore.com - Monday, 10/15/01 01:05:48 GMT gas forge needs a good cheap lining that will withstand welding temps any help is appreciated low on cash flow larry -- slimertwo@aol.com - Tuesday, 10/23/01 05:09:09 GMT It's 0400 hrs. and I can't sleep, so I thought I'd check out the forum. I've been blacksmithing for most of my life, and been an ABANA and local chapter member for around 20 years. During that time I've seen the politics, personality games, and just plain old B.S. worm its way into this hobby/profession (or I should say the ABANA side of it). If it keeps on, there'll most likely be no ABANA or local blacksmithing organisations. I'll probably not renew my ABANA membership when it's due; I'll remain a member of my local organisation unless the B.S. gets too deep. I was blacksmithing before ABANA, and I'll be blacksmithing after ABANA; it really makes no difference to me. Charles Hinton -- polizei_27330@yahoo.com - Wednesday, 12/12/01 09:47:40 GMT Charles, I agree. I have been in the fire for 15 or so years, but not a professional smith for sure. Have always kept a day ( or night ) job. I have never been associated with a professional group of smiths until I became a member of Cyber Smiths International. I don't plan to join ABANA. I sincerely believe that local groups of smiths will be present in the capacity of just bein a bunch of fellas ( ladies too ) that like to get together and share BS and ideas. Political correctness burns me to the core, and don't tolerate it in my personal life. Fear of liability does. If fear of liability scares ABANA ( at an UNSANCTIONED event ), then the local Fire Dept ( which is insured ) would be liable for fireworks accidents on the 4th, and would discontinue the events. Knee jerk reactions are dangerous. So are irresponsable acts, like firing a swege block. Too many lawyers = too much liability in my opinion. Steve O'Grady -- lforge@netins.net - Sunday, 01/13/02 11:19:53 GMT In regards to the anvill shoot controversity. This may be a little after the fact. but as an old buckskinner who just found this site; I am glad to see some people with the backbone to continue some of the old traditions in todays politically correct world. Anvil shoots are no different than cannon shoots, or trail shoots. If properly done thay are safer than driving on the highway to get to them. Safety comes from the caution used not from rules and regulations set down by people who have no or little knowledge of what is actually being done. May the wind be always at your back , Ramrod Ramrod -- weimer@valkyrie.net - Tuesday, 04/30/02 08:47:32 GMT |